Was Jesus With God Before the World Existed?

"And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.” -- John 17:5 (ESV)

The above Scripture is often used as absolute proof that Jesus preexisted his earthly life as deity in heaven. The doctrine of the preexistence of Christ is fundamental to the all important doctrine of the Trinity held by most Christian denominations. In this verse it appears that Jesus is asking to be reinstated to his former glory which he had with the Father in heaven.

But this raises some serious questions. In the Trinity model, who is praying here? Is it the divine nature or the human nature? The man Jesus did not preexist so, it must be the divine Son of God. But why would God the Son, a supposed equal, pray to God the Father for the restoration of his glory? Hmm...

Clear Evidence

In a recent debate between Biblical Unitarian, Dr. Dale Tuggy, and Trinitarian, Dr. Michael Brown, the latter pointed to this verse as “clear evidence” of Jesus preexistence. (You can listen to that debate here: “Is the God of the Bible the Father Alone?”). The fact is, prior to 2009, I would have heartily agreed with Dr. Brown! Admittedly, before that time I never seriously questioned the logic of Christ’s preexistence, or the doctrine of the Trinity. Like most, I just accepted it as true based on what I was told, and on the Scriptures they pointed to for its support. 

This verse seems pretty clear-cut on its face, especially when paired with John 1:1, which says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Combine these with various other New Testament verses such as John 8:58 and Col 1:15-16, and it’s a slam dunk, right? Armed with these bible verses, how could anyone reasonably argue against the preexistence of Christ? 

One thing I discovered after giving this matter serious thought over the past several years is there is a glaring omission of context when John 17:5 is cited to prove preexistence and deity. For example: John 17:3 reads:

"And this is eternal life, that they know you (Father), the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (emphasis mine)

This is part of Jesus’ prayer to “the Father”. It is The Father that Jesus himself calls “the only true God”. What this language conveys, both in Greek and English, is clear. There is only one who is God in the truest sense. It seems to me that this also is a “clear evidence” text. It is clear that if the Father is “the ONLY true God”, then Jesus Christ cannot also be true God. 

What I have found rather consistently among those who turn to John 17:5, to prove the preexistence and deity of Christ, is a failure to address John 17:3. Both of these “clear evidence” texts cannot be true at the same time. If the Father alone is God, then Jesus cannot have existed as an equal God with Him. This is not my opinion, it is self-evident from the text. What then does Jesus mean by “... glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began.” Only a solution that does NOT contradict verse 3 can be sufficient!

Let me be clear that there are no textual problems with John 17:5. It says what is says. “Father glorify me in your own presence”; para seautōi. "Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament" translates this as “by the side of Thyself”. Further, “I had” means exactly that; IE. actually possessed. This is a clear reference to the ascension and exaltation of Christ. Jesus is asking for glory alongside the Father, as though it was something he previously possessed.

Harmonizing John 17:5 with John 17:3

So how can we reconcile this against John 17:3? What we have here is one verse that contradicts the deity of Christ (v3) and another that asserts the preexistence of Christ. But preexistence does not prove, or even suggest deity. In other words, one can soundly believe that Jesus preexisted (and John 17:5 demands it), and yet reject the deity of Christ, and therefore the Trinity, based on verse 3 (along with many others). 

Preexistence does not require a literal interpretation. For example: many couples plan their families in advance. They determine they will have "x" number of children, and no more. Further, they may plan an inheritance for their children, such as a place in the family business, a college education, etc. In some cultures they even pre-plan marriages well in advance. It could then be said that the children preexisted their literal, physical existence, in the mind of their parents.

Did Jesus exist in the mind of God before the world began? Yes, most certainly! This, I assert, is what John means by “the Word” in John 1:1. In the beginning God had a plan to reconcile the world to Himself. This plan required a man through whom He would reveal Himself, accomplish reconciliation, and then bestow great glory and honor as the king of His kingdom. Thus, the Word (the plan) became flesh in the person of Jesus, God's Christ. Note also, the following Scriptures:

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men." -- Acts 2:22-23;

"He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God." -- 1 Pet 1:20-21

Jesus was clearly in God's foreknowledge, in His plan, prior to creation.

Now you can see what Jesus means when he says “glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began”. At the time of this narrative in John’s gospel, Jesus earthly ministry was coming to a close. He said: “I glorified You on earth, having accomplished the work you gave me to do.” (John 17:4) He was soon to be killed on a cross and become the lamb that takes away the sins of the world. In fact, some scholars have suggested that “glory” in John’s gospel is a reference, not just to exaltation, but to Jesus suffering and death. 

Death and Resurrection/Subsequent Exaltation

There can be no doubt that all of these events were in God’s plan for Jesus. He was simply praying that The Father’s plan would now be realized… “glorify me with the glory I had with you (you planned for me) before the world existed”. The glory that Jesus “had” with the Father was the glory that existed for him in God’s plan, from the beginning; the glory of suffering and death and subsequent resurrection and exaltation to the Father's own right hand!

This is not difficult to comprehend. To speak of something as having already happened before it actually takes place is not uncommon in the bible. It’s a way of speaking about the absolute certainty that God’s plan and promises will come to pass.

For example:

• Paul speaks of us Christians as already having been “raised with Christ” even though we won’t literally be raised until he appears (Col 3:1). 
• Paul also says He (God) “chose us in him before the foundation of the world”, although we weren’t literally there to be chosen (Eph 1:4). 
• In 2 Timothy 1:9 Paul writes that we received our salvation and holy calling by God’s grace in Christ “before the ages began” even though we did not yet exist. 
• Also, see Jer 1:5. Did Jeremiah literally exist in the presence of God before creation? Of course not.

Conclusion

Did Jesus exist with the Father and have glory with Him before the world began? And did God know and love Jesus before the foundation of the world? (John 17:24) Yes! But this proves neither literal preexistence, nor eternal deity. 

Jesus said there is only one true God, and He is The Father! (John 17:3) John 17:5 MUST be understood and interpreted in that light. Since John 17:3 disallows for the deity of Christ, as an equal with the Father, an "ideal" or "figurative" understanding of preexistence is reasonable.

The only alternative to this is a literal preexistence as taught by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The JW’s hold to a doctrine of preexistence similar to that of the ancient theologian Arius, who got in trouble with his bishop Athanasius, for saying “there was a time when Jesus was not” - meaning, Jesus was created at some point in time before the world was created, but he was not eternal deity. This teaching was based on Col 1:15 where Paul describes Jesus as “the firstborn of all creation.” 

But these interpretations are simply not compatible with the whole context of Scripture. Jesus was a man anointed by God to bring about His eternal plan of salvation for men. His own reward was exaltation with glory and honor, and a "name above every name... to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:11).

If you have been reading through this article and hold the traditional orthodox view of Jesus, it’s likely I haven’t changed your mind. But I pray that I have given you a strong argument to seriously consider, and that you will now search this out for yourself. There is no substitute for personal research and discovery of truth. (Jn 8:32)

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For further study:

Dr. Dustin Smith, "An Introduction to Preexistence Within the Bible"

(click HERE or the image below)

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